Tech4Good - Impact of Technology on Society

Status of Quantum Computers - Computing power of the Future - Interview with Professor Ronald Hanson of TU Delft

December 10, 2020 Pascal Huijbers - CTO Western Europe at Fujitsu Season 1 Episode 3
Tech4Good - Impact of Technology on Society
Status of Quantum Computers - Computing power of the Future - Interview with Professor Ronald Hanson of TU Delft
Show Notes Transcript Chapter Markers

This podcast episode will discuss the status and future of  Quantum Computing with Professor Ronald Hanson of the TU Delft and Qutech. Ronald Hanson is the leading authority on Quantum Computing and Quantum Internet. 

The podcast aims to give listeners a deeper understanding of how new and emerging technologies, in this case Qunatum technologies can help to make the world a better place for people, organisations and society.

This transcript is added for your convenience and automatically translated by Otter.ai so it might contain some errors. Please listen to the podcast for the correct text if in doubt.

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Pascal Huijbers  0:04  
Hi, everyone, welcome to this new episode of the tech for good podcast and today's about quantum computing. I'm very excited actually, because we have the Distinguished Professor of quantum computing and quantum internet of the Technical University of Delft, which is the leading Institute in the world on this topic, and I have an interview with him and we are going to discuss everything around quantum Where are we? What's the maturity? What can you expect from this? So if you are an IT leader, CXO, Chief, digital CTO, cio, and you're really interested in what is the next step on quantum, please listen to this podcast and how people can get to the next step.

So Hello, everyone, and welcome to this podcast of today. And today, we are talking about quantum computing, and maybe also a bit about quantum internet. And we have a very impressive thought leader on this topic in our podcast today he is he's a professor at the Technical University of Delft. Well, he's a distinguished professor actually, on quantum computing and quantum internet. And yeah, so very nice that you're joining us in this podcast today. Thanks for that. Oh, can i call you Ronald? , by the way?

Prof. Ronald Hanson  1:23  
Yes, absolutely. And very happy to be here. 

Pascal Huijbers  1:26  
So, before we kick off, can you give a bit of an impression on who you are and what you're doing in on daily basis?

Prof. Ronald Hanson  1:34  
Yes. So as she said, In the introduction, I'm a professor at tu Delft, that means that part of my job is doing research and this research in the field of quantum technologies, specifically quantum computing and quantum internet.

In that regard, I also do some teaching. But I'm also very active in trying to organize the national field around quantum technologies and getting different parties involved. So yeah, in in that regard, this podcast is actually very relevant also, for me, it's a way to connect to people that are not inside the quantum technologies, but may actually be confronted with it or can make use of it in the in the coming decades

Pascal Huijbers  2:20  
I also understood, you're also part of the steering committee, chair of the steering committee, on quantum as well for quantum Delta NL? 

Prof. Ronald Hanson  2:30  
Yes, so the field has organized itself into a foundation quantum Delta. Now, this has basically all the major stakeholders involved. And we wrote a comprehensive national agenda for quantum technologies. This was offered to the State Secretary of economic affairs on occasion last year. And we actually even got a starting impulse, a little bit of money to get this agenda going of 23 and a half million earlier this year. So things are moving. And actually, you see that the the coordination of this field they're getting together is really creating a critical mass to it's really geared at the Netherlands, but I think it will have a bigger impact in Europe and hopefully also worldwide.

Pascal Huijbers  3:18  
Okay, you were explaining? Well, I introduced you already as a professor of the Technical University Delft, but you're also working for Q tech. Can you explain what q tech is? Is that related to the technical university?

Prof. Ronald Hanson  3:31  
Qtech is a collaboration between the University of Delft and TNO. And TNO is a Dutch research and technology organization.

And this was actually started this collaboration about six years ago now. From the observation that there was a lot of excellent science coming out of the TU Delft. And there was this opportunity seen with the with the advent of quantum technology. So it was this opportunity to see Can we make a step from science to actual technologies? And what would that take? And out of that, thinking out of this thought exercise can be idea to actually bring scientists together with applied engineers inside one building. And so this is what kewtech actually is, it's, it's housed in in a building attitudes campus. But the people from tienen to delta are really working together in different mixed teams. And currently, there's about 200 researchers working on the different challenges related to quantum computing and quantum internet in this incident, okay. 

Pascal Huijbers  4:44  
Now, I also understood you have a sort of a labs in tQech as well. sort of structure. So you have multiple labs on different kind of topics. Is that correct?

Prof. Ronald Hanson  4:54  
Yes, yeah. Yeah. So we are the week you cannot organize these into different divisions. So there's one division working on quantum internet. So the application of quantum technologies and communication. One is working on quantum computing. And we have a third division that works more on the foundational aspects of foundational technology, I should say, that kind of feed into the other divisions. And good thing has its own research labs. So we have, if you would visit us one day, Maybe after COVID is over, you can actually see we have really, really interesting high tech working there. The the scope of quantum computers and quantum internet devices are, we will talk about that a little bit later. But this is, I mean, this is a nascent technology, and you really see this technology evolving very fast inside inside our labs. Okay, great. Yeah. So quantum computing, I think, is a very interesting topic. So we hear a lot about artificial intelligence, and so on. But what we also hear now, last couple of years, so Well, a lot of new new discussions on quantum and actually, what is the status of quantum Where are we? And so who better to ask than us? So what is your view on the quantum topic? Where we are currently? So can you maybe explain a bit? What your views on the maturity of quantum computing in the sense, but also the sort of challenges you see currently, that you are working on? Yes, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's a very interesting time. Actually, very good go back to the days when we started kewtech. But six years ago,

I think most people saw quantum technologies as something that would happen. At some point in time, it will happen eventually, but not in a sort of timeline that they could envision. So it will not happen in the next 20 years, it would happen at some point.

And what has changed in the past six years is that we've gone through many breakthroughs, both in theory, but also in the in the technology itself, that we can now actually see roadmaps that lead to, you know, real quantum computers, making impact on society within 15 or 20 years. And actually, what has happened in the past few years is that starting from devices that were really research and endeavors, I would say, the first small devices have been made that are now at the level that they are so complex, that they cannot be simulated anymore by any classical,

what we call classical means any conventional computer. So one of the milestones in this field was the experiment by Google published last year, in which they did an experiment that we can debate whether it was really better than any simulation that could have been done on a computer, but definitely, it's in the same ballpark. So we are really at this at this tipping point where where the character quantum machine is, at least in principle, able to do something that this is not tractable anymore on a conventional machine. And that's actually very exciting, because it means that we're, we're entering a new era in which also, we it's sort of unknown territory, right? I mean, we can we are scaling of the devices. And we are getting into a territory where what we're doing cannot easily be checked anymore or verified by machines that we can be ugly, and

Pascal Huijbers  8:40  
you're the were some counter responses on that, that claim around quantum supremacy you were just talking about. What's your view on that? Where we are on this?

Prof. Ronald Hanson  8:54  
Yeah. So when Google made the announcement, actually, when the the fact that the message was coming, it was kind of leaked into the community, people heard about it. And IBM quickly responded that it was not yet exactly at this tipping point. But it doesn't really matter whether this experiment was was exactly beyond the tipping point or right before. I think everybody agrees that we are we are really at this stage where quantum technologies is s can do as complex a task, or very specific task, by the way, as a supercomputer and think better. They're still a factor of two or 10. Somewhere in between is actually not relevant. I think if we look back 10 years from now, we look back to these days, and I'm 100% sure that people will say this was the tipping point where we went from small quantum computers that we know exactly what to do, and we can calculate that with our classical machines to a new era in which they do something that we cannot simulate anymore. Yeah, I know normal supercut

Pascal Huijbers  10:03  
Yeah,

Prof. Ronald Hanson  10:04  
yeah. And maybe it's okay, maybe we should dive one step into the technology itself. I it's wider this occasion why I'm saying this factor of two or even 10 is not important. And the reason for that is that the powerful of quantum technologies comes from the fact that you start with a different unit of of information, right. So all our current information processing and communication is basically based on processing and sending of bits, which are 01. And the idea of quantum technologies is to replace this with bits that can be 01 at the same time. And that means you get actually more options into your computer in the sense you're doing, you can do many calculations in parallel. And the scaling of that number of calculations actually goes exponential in the number of qubits. So that means that every time you add a qubit, the the number of states that you're working with, it's increased by a factor of two. And that means that if I now talking about a an experiment by Google that has maybe 53 quantum bits, and maybe that is sort of right below the tipping point, if I just add two qubit students, they make a 55. I number of states I'm, I'm evolving goes up by by a factor of four. So I'm quickly you know, increasing the state debate If so, if I add 10 cubits I add, you know, a factor of two to the power 10, which is about 1000 already. And so, I mean, whether we are now with 53 cubits on this tipping point, or 55, or 56, not so important.

Pascal Huijbers  11:45  
So what So what you're seeing if I get you correctly, so so because of things like superposition, and entanglement and so on, this, this computing power is, in essence, sort of exponential. And if you look at the more traditional ways of calculating because it's only zeros and ones, and so on, it's more linear in that sense. So the discussion is not so much. Yes. So how would you describe the discussion in that sense? Because you said, you don't need that many cubits in that sense to really have the possibility to make very complex calculations, for example, is instead not the argument here.

Prof. Ronald Hanson  12:26  
Yeah, it's, it's, uh, well, we have to distinguish two scenarios. So the the first scenario, and this is what Google has actually done is to find some task ID at which a quantum computer can beat the classical computer. And they found a task, which we we don't know that it has any use, it may not have any use at all. But just to show that, in principle, the quantum computer can beat the best classical computers. But of course, what we are after, in the end, is that the quantum computer can do a task that is interesting and useful, right and has some positive societal impact. And to do such a task better than a classical computer. And actually, if we think about such stars, we know a number of such stars, we will actually need quite a quite a bit bigger quantum computer, so we're not yet at the point where they can make a useful impact. But we are at the point where we can show the 3d the complexity of the machine is is so large, that it that it has this power to do really do better than classical computers. And I think in the end, there is not really much debate in the in the community that this experiment is a milestone, the only discussion is really about, okay, can the classical computer do it in one day or in two weeks or in a year? And as I said, because of this exponential scaling that discussion in the museum, our discussion is isn't is not so relevant, because Google will or you know, other people will do another experiment this year or next year, and then and then they will definitely have crossed this, this boundary.

Pascal Huijbers  14:17  
Okay, this. So it's also also your argument in this that a lot of these cases that are actually run on supercomputers are potentially the same use cases that you see for for quantum, like climate change your calculations, protein simulations, those kinds of things. Yeah,

Prof. Ronald Hanson  14:35  
that's, well, that's a very interesting question. So So where is the use for quantum computers? And it may well be that this goes in phases, right, that there will be a phase in which quantum computers will be like our concurrent supercomputers, probably actually in sync with our current supercomputer so that there's a question Quantum hybrid way of calculating things. And so what quantum computers are good at is really certain specific heart calculations and examples of those calculations are indeed calculating the behavior of molecules. Because actually, any or certain material properties that are very complex, and quantum computers are good at that, because in the end, those problems are quantum mechanical in nature, they actually hard to calculate, because, you know, these these molecules behave as a quantum system. And quantum computers are, of course, also quantum systems. So, they are very efficient in simulating what goes on into these in these molecules, whereas, our normal computers are in a way too simple to simulate this, right, because the bits that can only be 01, it's very hard to simulate or to calculate what's going on in a system, where things are always zero on at the same time, and that is actually what gives this pretty hard limit on. I mean, if you think about the number of qubits that with just, you know, in sort of in the in the 50s of, of cubits 50 or 60 cubits, you can already beat a supercomputer, it is quite crazy. I said, number is super small, a number of keywords, but it's just because there's, you know, there's number of states involved there. So, so, so large. So indeed, it will start probably with specific heart computational tasks. And they are in these these real calculating properties of sort of uncertain molecules, calculating material properties, these kind of things is what it all started with. But there are also people thinking about, can we do optimization problems that are hard on a quantum computer? and many other different I mean, climate models, for instance, are there there's many cases in which, you know, a lot of data is is is linked to each other in a very complicated way. quantum computers may actually have a big advantage.

Pascal Huijbers  17:11  
Do you also, you were making a relation with quantum physics, right, when you talked about proteins? I know you had a different word for it. But you know, which one I meant? Do you also see a connection between mathematical models that we can't solve currently, and maybe the use of, of quantum can be, for example, calculate things that we never were able to calculate before? Because we use traditional ways of calculating is that your view on that as well?

Prof. Ronald Hanson  17:43  
Yes, yes, that that is definitely the case. And there are certain examples of that, where we know that the quantum computer can can solve certain problems efficiently. Where a normal computer cannot do that. Actually, one very famous example that was already discovered in the in the 90s, is finding the prime factors of large numbers. So that is actually a task where a normal computer is very bad at. So it's quite easy on a normal computer to check whether you have to prime factors, right. So if you want to check whether three times five is 15, for a big number, that's easy on a normal computer. But actually, if you get the number 15, you have to find the prime factors. This is very inefficient. And this is actually the debaters of much of the security that we currently have on the on the internet end in the RSA system. And in the 90s, Peter Shor actually found an efficient algorithm on a quantum computer. So quantum computer can actually efficiently find the prime factors of of large numbers, this so this is one example. And then there are many other examples that that are concurrently being looked into. But indeed, so yeah, difficult mathematical problems. In the sense if you think about these physics problems, or the proteins, they are, of course, also mathematical problems. It's, it's the fact that the math behind it is tricky and complex. What makes it here quantum computers more powerful in this respect, and Sandhya.

Pascal Huijbers  19:19  
So today's podcast is also about tech for good. So the sort of the purpose we can get out of technology. Do you believe that quantum can also make the world a bit a bit of place? And what kind of things would you think about?

Prof. Ronald Hanson  19:38  
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So the way I see it is the development of these quantum technologies. And let's say the quantum computer as an example, I think, you know, in a way it says, you know, you you're finding glasses to look at the role that was hidden for you. Before, there's sort of a new The world opens up for us. And I think that will give us many many opportunities. You can think Muslim travel, if you think about you want to have a battery that does not have an energy loss or you want to transmit energy without loss, right this is this is very important. We know that certain materials that we call a superconductors, they can actually do this job. So, they are they are materials in, in nature that do not have lost when transmitting energy. But the problem is that, to get these materials superconducting you need to cool them down. And we know that some materials can probably do this at higher temperatures. And we're actually, you know, close to getting something that works at room temperature. And we know the calculation that we have to do to to solve what's going on inside this inside the superconductors. But our current computers cannot solve this problem there. As I said before, they're a bit too simplistic to actually calculate these material properties. So we're gonna think that if one has a quantum computer, you can actually understand the predicted the properties of these materials, and then also perhaps find the recipe to build a material that you know, is really superconducting at room temperature, and you would have an almost perfect battery. Let me give you another example that has to do with climate. I don't know if this is well known for people to listen to this. But actually, a large percentage of the world's energy today is consumed to make fertilizer, this is really three to 5% of our roads, energy consumption. And why is this number so high? That's because one of the steps in making fertilizers is actually extremely inefficient. And so we do this with brute force. But as it happens, there is a bacteria, we know that bacteria that performs that exact same process, the the technical name is nitrogen fixation for the experts, that same process is done very efficiently by this bacteria inside plants. And so we actually have an example of how to do it efficiently. But we we cannot simulate or calculate how the bacteria does it. But if we would have a quantum computer, we will be able to calculate the process. And then we could apply it ourselves on an industrial scale. And in that sense, we could significantly decrease the energy consumption of the world

Pascal Huijbers  22:26  
understands very good example. Yeah, so maybe just to go a step back, we already discussed a bit the maturity of quantum and your expectations on where it will go for the for the, for the next year, next year. So actually, what are the current challenges that you see? And can you tell us a bit more about what you're doing on a daily basis on in this field?

Prof. Ronald Hanson  22:52  
Yeah, the current challenges, maybe one could say they are twofold. On the one hand, we really have to mature the technology itself. So there's a lot of engineering challenges that are involved to, to make a quantum computer run, it doesn't run like a normal computer, you have to protect these these quantum states, and at the same time, make them do certain calculations. So to scale these devices, I can do that up to, you know, hundreds, 1000s, or millions of quantum bits, that's, that's a real technical challenge. Looking from the other side, you know, we know that we will, in a decade or two, maybe within 15 years or so, we will have such a machine This is this, the chances that we have a machine this are very high. So we should also try to understand what exactly we can do with this machine. That's up to now I gave you a few examples that we already know what we can do. But it's I think it's fair to say that on large scale, we have no idea what what exactly can and cannot be done with a quantum computer. So, a really big part of the this this field is now growing this out trying to do either via really formal mathematics to try to find classes of application, but also to look at certain specific application to see for example, we have the proper port of Rotterdam maybe have some logistical challenges there, can we use a quantum computer to actually solve these challenges in a more efficient way than we are trying to do it now to really take concrete examples of challenges that we face in the world and see what kind of quantum computer to do okay. So, that is that is the other side is happening now. And ideally, of course, these two come together. And the use case or the applications will also steer the technology development and vice versa.

Pascal Huijbers  24:59  
Okay. You were talking about applications? And the trick is another question for me. So if you look at supercomputers, for example, you can run an application, you can almost run Windows on it. Or even worse, if you would like. And often things are done in things like AR, how do you actually run an application on a quantum computer? Is it is it a circuit that you need to program? Or it is also some This is also part of the research, you're still doing to figure out how this application would actually run on a quantum computer?

Prof. Ronald Hanson  25:36  
Yes, actually, this is a very good point. And the when we started with q tech, six years ago, we also identified this point, right. So you can have physicists that that that runs on a circuit consisting of some some quantum particles that are doing your calculation, but in the end, it will be a computer that you have to program. So we started to collaborate very early on with computer scientists, and people that are working on computer architectures. And actually, you can you can get quite far by mapping the different layers of abstraction that we have currently in computers, onto quantum computer. So of course, if you are a user of a quantum computer, you you don't want to know about all the details of the circuit belong, and what's going on, you want to program at a at a high level. And so over the past years, people have developed interfaces for these different layers of abstraction. And, in fact, we have also a platform online quantum inspire, that is powered by kewtech, where you can actually do such programming, it's not yet at the highest level of abstraction, but it sets a level of abstraction that you can already play a little bit and have a feeling of what quantum does. So all these layers are being developed. And there's a lot of stuff. I mean, if you go to the quantum inspire website, there's a lot of stuff that's already hidden from you, that goes from you typing in some some simple code, some operation you want to do into the physical execution of the the gates into your quantum it. So it's the this is something that had to be developed, and it's being developed. And it's a very active area of research, actually.

Pascal Huijbers  27:25  
Okay, that means also, if you're a developer, you do need to learn more about quantum. But you don't have to go into quantum physics, because you can talk to this, this layers, but you still have to understand like gates and so on to to make a program actually run on a quantum Is that correct?

Prof. Ronald Hanson  27:42  
Yeah, I think that depends on what level you want to develop. So just like I mean, if you say you're you're running Windows, of course, Windows runs on something else. And that runs on something else. And we envisioned that the same will happen in the area of quantum computing. So you will have certain standard protocols or sub routines that are already pre programmed for you that you can call. And Indians, I think most developers will be one level up so they will not understand or have to know much about the individual gates, but they can use certain routines and just stitch them together in a way that they that they want. Okay,

Pascal Huijbers  28:26  
yeah. Our audience. We have a variety of variety of roles, of course, that people listening to this podcast, but most of them are CXO. leaders. Yeah, so CTO CIOs. Chief Digital's what can they expect from quantum? So if they are listening to this podcast, and they think, well, this might be interesting, what would you advise them to do? And what what do you think they can get out of this?

Prof. Ronald Hanson  28:55  
Yes. So I think the first is that people have to understand that this this technology will come. And it will, it will become important in the next decade, sort of diverse thing to do is to be prepared by being informed and we are also trying with the national agenda, and at least here in the Netherlands to to actively reach out. But I think for for many companies and we you actually see this happening in most of the companies already, that people need to have a certain level of information about what's coming in the coming years. And then try to map that onto their own business. one step further is of course, to think about can quantum technology be helpful for your business? Or can you play a role perhaps in the production processes, right, different quantum computers build up of many components, many different layers from hardware to software. And much expertise that is being there was being trained on classical computers can actually be useful in this quantum music. So I think that it this, this is also a matter of conversation, try to talk to people that understand what quantum computers can do, and see how your business can connect to this. Because the and again, I have to say, I think most certainly large companies have already done this in the past years, the awareness is definitely growing. But I would really call on, you know, all companies to do this and look for the opportunities because the opportunities will be there, but they will differ by business, of course. And, you know, myself and I think everybody in the quantum Delta Nelvana Foundation, we were very happy to help you to, to see what you can do and also to find partners to work with, because that's, that's another thing, right? It's, it can be kind of a zoo to Who do you have to talk to? You know, how do I find the person that knows something about what what matters to you, we can also help and actually pointing you in the right direction.

Pascal Huijbers  31:10  
Okay, I understand. I also see Technical University of Delft as one of the leading institutes Institute's on this topic in the world. Do you see on a more global scale, this is also picking up also in other regions, China, the US?

Prof. Ronald Hanson  31:34  
Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, if you look at what has happened in the past three, four years, the investment that has gone into this area is gone up. Very, very, very fast. All the big tech companies are currently involved in this field. China has a very aggressive program to develop quantum technologies. And also at the European level, the a quantum technology flagship program was started in 2016. Actually, under the Dutch presidency of the EU, that is a 1 billion research our new program, I should say. And currently in Brussels, they're talking about what they call infrastructure goals. So they want to or they are thinking about setting up European white more than in deployment type calls. And these are also really programs that are of the size of order one one go in Europe. So this is Yeah, this is definitely happening. And I think, you know, people are aware and acting and as the as the investment is growing you you will see this this field also speeding up.

Pascal Huijbers  32:56  
Okay, thank you very much Vasa very, was a great pleasure to talk to you about this topic. Professor Donald Ensenada any final words you would like to share with us for our listeners?

Prof. Ronald Hanson  33:09  
Well, I let's see, I I hope that you have gotten some idea of what quantum technology will bring to you. I will definitely advise you. You know, please find out more about quantum see what it will bring for you and and if there's any opportunity to get engaged and don't hesitate to get in contact with us.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

Intro Prof Ronald Hanson
Profile Prof Ronald Hanson
Quantum Delta NL
Qtech
Qtech Labs
Where are we on Quantum Computing
Is Quantum Supremacy reached by Google??
This is the Tipping Point for Quantum
Dive into the technology
Its not about the number of Qbits - Its exponential
Google Quantum Supremacy VS Supercomputers
Are Quantum Computers useful Today?
What are the use-cases for Quantum, are they the same as for Supercomputers?
What are Quantum computers good at
With 50 Qbits you can beat a Supercomputer
Can we solve Mathematical problems that we couldnt solve before?
Will Quantum computing make the World a better place?
Ferttilizer Case
Current Challenges on Quantum
No idea on what exacly can be done by Quantum - Research needed
How to run an application on a Quantum Computer
What do you need to learn/know as a Developer?
What can CxO's and Digital Leaders expect from Quantum