Funding your Research and Innovation through EU Horizon funding

Note: This is an automatically created transcript so it might contain errors.

Pascal Huijbers  
Hi, everyone, thank you for joining this new tech4good podcast. Today we are discussing the horizon funding programs from the EU. So if you're interested in innovation, you want to do innovation with your company or you're looking for partners to innovate together with listen to this podcast today because we will be discussing the new program called horizon Europe that will discuss the investments that will be made available from the EU to fund your innovation and research programs. And it's really meant as a way to improve the position of Europe. We have two interviews in this podcast that really explain what this is all about, but also discuss what your role as a technology leader can be in all of this. So let's start with our first interview with Marco and Jurgen thank you for joining Marco and Jurgen, can you please introduce yourself? 

Marco Canton  
Thanks, Pascal. Good morning. Good afternoon everybody, thanks for the opportunity to explain a bit what is a horizon 2020, Horizon Europe program. And what we are we are doing. My name is Marco Canton, I'm responsible for a European Public Affairs for Fujitsu based in Brussels. So what we do is basically trying to follow the European legislation on one side on the other side is really working on innovative projects, and trying to understand where there are opportunities for companies large and small to join this project. 

Pascal Huijbers  
So you're very much aware of what has been going on in the new funding structure and horizon 2020 type of projects, which are also very much aware of what's now in the plans for the coming years from the EU as well. 

Marco Canton  
Yeah, it's really important to work closely with European Commission and all the other stakeholders institutional and non institutional in order to understand what will be the new priorities also influence in a positive way you know putting forward comments to the European Commission that is always open to receive, you know, suggestions from all kinds of stakeholders, academics, non academics.

Pascal Huijbers  
Okay, thank you very much Marco. The other experts in our conversation today is Jurgen. Jurgen, can you introduce yourself as well?

Jurgen Neisses  
Hi Pascal.  My name is Jurgen Neisses . I am a mathematician working in the scientific computing and it innovation field since about 1990. I worked on international subsidies projects during my dissertation and many innovation projects, national funded projects, German programs, International Programs like FP7 and horizon 2020. So, let us go to the first discussion topic and can

Pascal Huijbers  
You explain what the EU is doing with all these funding schemes and frameworks and so on? I think this already started a couple of years ago, right? I'm not even sure about today's because they probably know all the details around this. But can you explain to us where we are in all of this? When we hear words like horizon 2020, in your eyes in Europe? With Can you give us a bit of insight on what's going on

Marco Canton  
Horizon 2020 is the largest public program funding the research and innovation in the world. That's really a big box with a lot of money, raised in 2020, has a budget of at around 80 billion, lasting for seven years at disposal of all stakeholders interested in working on innovation and development in the you know, the European member states, and in some cases, also in third countries that are associated for some specific topic. And in order to work with European Commission. I will say We are in front in a transitional phase because from 2021, the new horizon Europe program will start. And it's looking like we'd be even bigger in terms of budget, probably well, the commission suggested a budget of around 100 billion probably will be slightly reduced also due to the actual you know, difficult times we are facing, but we need to consider that probably UK would be excluded and UK was taking large part of the horizon 2020 previous program budget. So, we do see a lot of opportunities because also looking at the priorities of the new horizon Europe program, a lot of budget will go to digital sector applied in different verticals

Pascal Huijbers  
How does this work so if you're a researcher is is only for private companies is this for public companies. So can you be part of this funding?  Can you can use this funding for your own kind of projects, can you maybe explain how that works from an EU perspective in your view?

Jurgen Neisses  
Well, it's kind of large European Research and Innovation Program, fostering the development of the European Union and regarding growth, citizens, societal challenges in for example, health, energy transport, secure societies, border control and critical infrastructures. All these are topics which are funded for research and innovation along the strategic agenda of the European Union with technologies which are used there. This program shall foster and facilitate and convey measures to improve the situation. There are so called calls for proposals. So some actions are proposed by the European Union. They clame challenges and scopes and you can apply for this make proposals for interdisciplinary projects with international teams consisting of research of associations of large scale companies. SMEs, the European Union is fond of SMEs so they really are happy if SME supply and you get lots of support by a so called national contact points which helps you to find consulting groups teams and find the right place in the program for you. 

Pascal Huijbers  
Okay, but it means any SME can go to the EU and say, Okay, I would like to have this portion of the of the funding because I would like to do this program is this how it works?

Jurgen Neisses  
quite, but not completely. The work is you organize around these calls for proposals, the actions the EU wants to have, and you organize teams and these teams propose approach And these there are matchmaking events, proposed so called proposal days where people consortia companies meet, and the so called national contact points can explain to every organization, what's the scope? How can they fit into these calls, and helping them in matchmaking, finding the right groups.

Pascal Huijbers  
Okay, so these are more like consortia doing these kind of projects together, but how do you even find the other partners for these kind of topics?

Jurgen Neisses  
Well, it's an it's a networking game. So you need to find the visits or at least observe these events, the ICT proposals, for example, and as I said before, you can walk into your national contact point and ask, okay, I have these topics and I would do I would like to do something on that field and innovation, what's up and they can support you in finding the consortia that write codes and introduce you to their network.

Pascal Huijbers  
So how does the EU funding relate to the Sustainable Development Goals? Because there seems to be a sort of connection right? There are some goals defined by the United Nations. And I think, well, partly this funding is also for execution or getting to these results. What is your view on the relation between the SDGs Are you funding but also the role of technology?

Marco Canton  
Well, the relation between horizon 2020 now, very soon, or as in Europe, and SDGs will be even stronger, because the commission was very explicit in the need to be really mission and target focused and aligned with the SDGs promoted by the UN. So the new programmers in Europe in particular will have concrete missions. Some of them are, for example, fighting cancer poverty in getting new technologies, for example, for smart cities, and many others, where of course technology plays a key role, but not technology only as we were mentioning, we need a really a very good and high level mix of expertise in each project consorts here. What do you mix great technology companies with very high level academics, small companies, startups, innovation, many different ingredients you know, to make an excellent soup I will say the previous program just to also to go very concrete horizon 2020. Funded already very concrete actions. Let's think about for example, the three supercomputing computers funded in in Spain, Barcelona, Zealand and Italy that will develop and support high level projects with very concrete deliverables for the society. So both horizon europe  and the previous actual program horizon 2020 are really focused to be very concrete and bringing benefits for, for for society.

Pascal Huijbers  
Okay, I get a point and is also see when I look at the you projects that have been running in the past and I'm looking into some of the details of that now, then the claim results like new planets have been discovered, 1.6 million Ebola vaccines are made available and so on. So this is not only about research, this seems to be really practical results that really have an impact on things which are going on right i think the Ebola vaccine is of course our very actual theme currently. But of course also the all the other topics are have such a wide scope and have such a big impact. Do you do believe these are real results coming from these projects, or are these more like claims? Yeah. Because of course you need to justify your project. But yeah, it's more like maybe your research document or something, well, what's your view on that one?

Jurgen Neisses  
This are results of the project, and it's part of the project to have impact. And you need to show in the proposal you make, that you will have impact and how you want to achieve the impact of your project.

Pascal Huijbers  
Okay, now, I understand this as one of the participants in all of this. Yeah, so of course, if you do a project, you need to make sure you deliver the results of this project also because you get funding. But I'm not talking about individual projects. Here. I'm talking about the overall EU scheme, the EU framework. And the way you can claim the results right as outcome of this, of this funding scheme. Sois your view maybe a more hollistic view that these kind of projects are the core for innovation for Europe? Is this the part where it all comes together and brings Europe to the next level?

Marco Canton  
Horizon 2020 and the next horizon Europe won't, by themselves, save the Europe, or , you know, increase the level of funding and results on innovation alone. They need strong cooperation with member states, because every mean member states they have their own research and innovation program. So it's really important to cooperate, different levels, you know, the local level, the national level, and also the European level and the international level. So that's why horizon 2020 and the next horizon Europe most likely, will have special cooperation programs with countries like Japan, like US, like Canada, that are at the same level of r&d investments and in some cases, also With a bit to say, tourist countries that are that are lagging a bit behind. So there is a need to cooperate all together. We have a different, let's say level of results. In some projects, they are very specific and they deliver concrete results that we can easily measure because they are focusing on a specific, let's say, niche topics, niche challenge that we want to solve. Other projects are big, big, largest. And they have a large approach like the for example, the AI4EU, the flagship program project that is now currently ongoing, that is a wide AI on demand platform that is going to be developed through a huge investment of the European Commission. So if you think about this specific project, there will be many specific deliverables , many specific see results that will be available for European users, but at the same time large project like that needs to cooperate with national projects with national investments otherwise, you know, there wont be a concrete impact on on that on this side.

Pascal Huijbers  
Okay, so yeah, so I think this is a really good example. So you were talking about AI4EU. I think if you look at the overall position of Europe in the topic of AI, let's pick up on that one. I think if you look at other regions like China, they really have big investments, right on AI. So they have a lot of data available big investments to be really strong on AI. And I think they see themselves as one of the core players in AI just because of this. But also, if you look at other regions like Russia, well, they have some other reasons why to do this. But I think they also want to be strong, right? If you look at the US big investments, and I think if you look at Europe, it's a bit all over the place. If you look at the different countries and they have their own initiatives, but it's not like really aligned yet. Do you see the EU project? And in this case horizon, Europe is the way forward for Europe to become a strong AI player?

Marco Canton  
Yeah, absolutely. This is the way forward, we need definitely. And this is clear in the draft strategy of the European Commission for the next five years on AI, that is now currently under public consultation. So all the stakeholders can add, you know, comments and new ideas to improve the actual strategy that will be then adopted by the end of the year. Luckily, there is a need for increasing the funding. That's clear because we need to come closer to the level of investment of us China and maybe other countries. But there is also need to improve the cooperation between the European Commission and the member states. We also need to improve the synergies between public and private so that will be probably in AI public Private Partnership loaned by the European Commission very soon, because in this way we can actually leverage the public funding with the private investments, that's really important. There are many initiatives to improve the participation and increase the participation of smaller companies and startups and merge the expertise with the large companies. And last but not least, there is a clear intention of the European Commission to invest a lot on digital skills, particularly AI related skills, in order to to make available for for the market. You know, and for the jobs market in particular, all the opportunities that are coming with the AI. So there is a there is a large plan to improve, let's say the performance of AI in Europe. And the final the final goal is not to say to have a better AI In Europe, but to have AI supporting citizens and society, in Europe, that's the key point.

Pascal Huijbers  
Okay. So last question from my side. So many of our audience are people who are digital leaders, for public organizations, private organizations, and so on. What do they do with horizon? Europe now? Because I think this is the time where they need to start thinking about it, and to make collaborations and with others, and well set up these working modes with other companies and so on. What should they do? What's your advice to them?

Marco Canton  
For European leaders of small and large companies, you need to be visionary, but the same very cool at the same time very concrete. You need to be visionary because you need to look ahead and to understand how the new technologies can support the society. You need also to be and that's really important, in particular for European programs, open for collaboration in partnerships with different kinds of stakeholders. So not, you know, private, public, academic, non academic companies, and also with different mindsets, because many people are coming from different countries. So you know, you need to be able to work with people that normally they don't have the same approach that that you have. And that's something that enrich you it's not it's not only a challenge, but it's wrong, something goes very, very positive. The last, the last point I will suggest is also to try and to see and to look at the big picture in in three years from now. And trying to work together with your partners in order to have to reach something very high level and that is something really ahead. That is not in place yet, but can be really successful in the near future. 

Pascal Huijbers  
and Jurgen?

Jurgen Neisses  
Yeah, we will see lots of preparation for the new horizon Europe program on both sides, either the EU and in the community by community. So, if you are not participating in the European AI framework yet, I would advise you to have a look at your AI agenda. Where are the spaces where you need collaboration or input or where you would see some impact by input and collaboration with others. And then check this with the upcoming agenda. Ask your friends national contact point. Observe the European Union's websites and events they shall be or this plant considering the current situation and the huge event in Cologne, Germany, the ICT 2020 at the beginning of December This is an event where you will meet many projects, many experts. And I guess almost the complete network of people who are active in the program yet, and so they will get lots of information, lots of contacts and it will be a big waterhole for the complete community.

Pascal Huijbers  
Thank you very much, Michael and Juergen for this interview was very nice to have this conversation with you, and looking forward to see what will be the outcome of horizon Europe in the future. Thank you very much.

Marco Canton  
Thanks a lot. 

Jurgen Neisses  
Thank you pascal.

Pascal Huijbers  
So our second interview of this podcast will be with John soldatos. He's already on a call. So thank you for joining john.

John Soldatos  
Thank you very much Pascal for the opportunity. I'm John Soldatos,  just for the record. I'm an academic professor at Glasgow and I'm also research and development and innovation consultant to Several enterprises, including some high tech startups,

Pascal Huijbers  
Can you take us a bit back in where it all started? So we have got a bit of an understanding how this works from the EU. Can you explain what horizon 2020 years and also a bit of where we are and the current status?

John Soldatos  
Yes. Well, the framework programs for research and development are not something new that have been since the formation of the European Union. And there have been some continuations and successive programs of different nature. Currently, we are in the we are running the program, which is called horizon 2020. That was a program that started in 2014 and extends till 2020. It's approximately a billion euro funding program to support all sorts of innovations in different sectors and for different types of organizations, including universities, SMEs and startups, but of course, support of larger enterprises. And this is a program that has been running for almost six years. And we are moving closer to its end.

Pascal Huijbers  
Because we are now in 2020. Does it mean it's all finished this year? Or how can we see this position of horizon 2020?

John Soldatos  
Yeah, it's nominally finishing end of this year and the new framework program will start from 2021, which is called Horizon Europe.

Pascal Huijbers  
Can we maybe talk a bit more about horizon 2020 just to get a bit of a view on what it has been? Can you explain what kind of topics were part of that but also some concrete results that came out of this?

John Soldatos  
Yeah, in. In general, there is a very broad range of topics. So on the one hand, the main supporting Europe The so called industrial leadership, so, you know developing the technologies of the of the future. On the other hand, it aimed at addressing societal challenges. So, you know, this is there is a prominent link to the tech for good for the show you can imagine things like health care and shipping economy for example, which is a hot topic nowadays as per the, you know, Green Deal. Also what was introduced in our eyes in 2020. And was particularly interesting was a program dedicated to supporting high tech innovative small medium enterprises, small medium businesses. So, the so called SME instrument, so, these was first introduced in horizon 2020. And it was an accelerator like type of problem aiming and support disrupting innovations to to reach the market faster and higher scale

Pascal Huijbers  
Sometimes this is referred to as a sort of research and innovation program, but is it only research based in that sense he or other also really concrete results out of this which are well already usable for organizations to work with or what's your view on that?

John Soldatos  
I didn't know the program covers from basically sir and more market facing events that are aiming to put project products closer to the market. For example, the SME instrument was one one kind of such program right. So it aimed at helping small medium businesses to put their innovation to market faster attract customers into one. So, typically, the outcome of horizon 2020 product program if not, you know, basically search will be at the pre competitive stage. But there are also instances of results that are closer to to the market. So depending on the type of program on the type of funding, there are different instruments, you can get the results in the market in horizons ranging from one to two years, of course, to longer horizons, like five years so that depending on the kind of program and the type of insurance,

Pascal Huijbers  
like you just explained, we are now in 2020, which means there are still a couple of projects going on maybe even this year or maybe even next year, but also horizon Europe has been announced. What is your view on horizon Europe? And can you explain what the structure is all about? I also understood that there are some new elements in this some learnings from horizon 2020, things are done a bit different. Can you talk us through how this works?

John Soldatos  
Yes. Well, first of all, we don't know all the details. yet. Especially you know, in dividuals like me, we are not well, we're not working, you know, tied to the commission, but we have just been participating in the programs. But, of course, we know that it's going to be another ambitious research problem. The budget is the total budget is approximately planned to be around 100 billion euro, of course, you may understand that under some negotiation, and maybe now that we have the COVID-19 pandemic, there will be certainly some budgetary discussions that may affect this program positively or negatively. It remains to be seen in terms of structure. What the European Commission has announced is that it's going to be more on the evolution of horizon 2020 rather than evolution so rather than, you know, changing the program Completely, they are going to incorporate some lessons learned and best practices for horizon 2020 but the the structure will be more or less the same. So traditionally, what we, you know, be on commission is trying to do is first you know, to make all these programs and less bureaucratic and to keep the innovation cycle faster. Of course, you understand that it's not, there's not always very easy because these are competitive programs, they involve evaluations, they involve contract signature processes. So, you know, as we know, all these can take a few months, but the, the idea of the Commission and the intention is to shorten these innovation cycles and to make them more compatible to the innovation cycles that we actually have in the market right because in, in the companies, especially in smaller companies, we are more on dial in producing results. So they're gonna be always some changes in visa directions or less bureaucracy faster innovation cycle, of course, the topics will be renewed and updated to face the new realities and of course to face the technology evolution and use the new challenges. You know, maybe we can talk about the topics a little bit more, but you can think that the idea is that they have to support a Europe's industrial strengths in in some areas like you know, industry 4.0 where Europe is particularly strong, but also some challenges like sustainability and circular economy. And of course, in the technological forefront, it's very important to upgrade all the Digital infrastructures and to evolve them to directions like sixth generation of mobile communication, artificial intelligence, expanded use of artificial intelligence in many different sectors and so on.

Pascal Huijbers  
Okay, if I look at this new structure and you will already talking about some of these elements, I also see three pillars which are mentioned, like open science, global challenges and industrial competitiveness, and pillar 3d open innovation. What what's your view on this pillar? What's the idea behind this, this structure with the new pillars?

John Soldatos  
Well, you know, this is a very high level structure because as we go, this is specialized into more specific areas. However, you know, as you understand the open science is about enabling European scientists to have the resources they need Need to produce excellent results. And, of course, to be able to share resources and to collaborate. And this is all about open data, but also access to the proper infrastructures like computational resources, cloud and so on. And then of course, the other pillar you mentioned is about ensuring the industrial competitiveness of Europe. So this means, you know, staying at the forefront of the technological developments, we know that he's really a big competition there, for example, in topics like artificial intelligence, United States and China, they are advancing and they're working intensively on this topic. This is also a flagship topic for a European Union show a lot of support in there But this is just one example. As I said, there are much more other topics of industrial leadership.

Pascal Huijbers  
I also understood that one of the parts is the new European innovation council it sounds a bit like a very practical way of bringing ideas and research from the lab to to real world applications. Is that is that different than it has been done in the in the past, this is something new,

John Soldatos  
I think, you know, this is another maybe innovation or change, you know, in the structure of the problem, I think we will see this program, you know, moving more to an intrapreneurial spirit and accelerator type of problem. So, you know, giving funding for to giving grant funding to companies that have potential for high growth, accelerated growth and exponential growth, but at the same time, doing good Helping them to do the right bonding leveraging additional private investment and for one, so, we are going to see these SME instrument that I mentioned earlier evolving to these accelerator program and this is going to be under the best of my knowledge. So, you know, state public funding utopian taxpayers money but managed more in an entrepreneurial spirit and in a way you can maximize you know, their return on investment on money based on best practices of the of the industry because this is what you know, acceleration programs and renewal programs are all about.

Pascal Huijbers  
If you look at the goals for rice and Europe, they also talk about climbing Change and well improve quality of daily lives and so on. So it's a very wide range of goals, which are been set also as part of this program. But how do you see the role of technology in all of this? Is this one of the core components?

John Soldatos  
Well, you know, on the one hand innovation in this program, you develop excellent technology on the others, you have to use cutting edge technology in order to solve societal challenges. Maybe, you know, this is also a place where parts of this program will meet the tech for good pose and the sustainable goals, the Sustainable Development Goals objectives, in the sense that technology is a key enabler, right for solving these challenges. Then, through the funding program, you have also the opportunity to finance projects that may not have a tangible or immediate return on investment, but rather you know, certain sort of cycle purposes or societal goals. So, this program gives the opportunity for these and in what sense it complements no the other return on investment generating direction, right? Is not you finance infrastructure infrastructural projects, long term projects, sustainability projects that may not have green projects right now, as per the union new Green Deal, so you can finance projects or they don't have a tangible or an immediate return on investment. So, you can leverage public funding or public private partnerships through This program to support this kind of project. So I see also a good link to the tech for good objectives and to a lot of societal challenges, that they don't have a proven business model or tangible ROI.

Pascal Huijbers  
Okay, but do you also see a very explicit relation between the SDGs in this case and the end the funding scheme? So, another way to say it, do you see this program as the execution of getting to these SDG goals?

John Soldatos  
Yes, and some of the sustainability goals, I can mention. Previously, I talked about the circular economy but of course, we can really drill down and mention other aspects like, you know, energy efficiency. So, other areas that improve the environmental performance, for example, and There are gonna be a lot of projects like these funded through these, this program. Also another good area is probably self care and well being. Of course, we know that many sustainability related projects they are. And these are these are going to be among the societal challenges in shape and sustainable development goals that will be issued by the program.

Pascal Huijbers  
A lot of our audience today are working for a private or public organizations. What is the way that they can participate in all of this?

John Soldatos  
Well, I think the if we talk about the process, I think this won't change much from horizon 2020 so I'm in for the processes and organization needs to be registered to the European Commission. database for the problem. And of course, for the collaborative partners, I need to for the collaborative project. It needs to partner with the right organizations with for for their for their projects and for the applications that they are targeting. So that's, you know, the short answer and probably an easy part than the straightforward part. But in practice, things are a bit more challenging, especially for newcomers, because we have to explain that all these grants are the vast majority of these grants are competitive grants, which means that you know, you have to respond to a call for proposals and only the best proposals are selected. bid for funding. So this means that, you know, you have to do whatever possible to maximize your chances through being excellent in your team, of course, in your idea and of course, in the way you present your proposal, which is not always, you know, very easy to challenging task for what I would say it's also very important to, to align this problem to your research and innovation strategy. So to actually, you know, out of a fee of different instrument and call for proposals to focus on the one that align perfectly to your development goals to your line of business, and do your research or innovation strategy, all for the same hole for universities, right. We haven't talked about them very much during the podcast, but Universities are also participating in the project program. And they are supported where they said strategy through funding and also funding of a PhD is basically search. And for one,

Pascal Huijbers  
so companies are aligning their strategies for innovation and research with the program from horizon Europe. That's what you're saying. Right? So they're also looking for the projects that are really in sync with what we're trying to achieve in their research agenda. So what kind of funding can they expect? Is this 50% coverage of these kind of projects? So what type of funding can they expect one to one to do a research program? Is there something you can say in the more generic terms on this?

John Soldatos  
Yes, I think we've got the experience, you know, for eyes on 2020. We don't know exactly the percentage of The new program but because it's likely that a 2020 scheme will be followed for more high risk research projects for the so called Research and Innovation actions were funded 100% for all participants, including large industries, including SMEs, but also the image, the programs that were closer to the to the market, how the funding rate a lower funding rate of 70% most of the times some of the times, sometimes less even less 50%. So, that's for for problems that are more market facing so that they are much closer to the market not attempting research. So if you have found that A commission justifies also to 25% over two thirds as a flat rate for most companies and most programs, this means they are really a very good vehicle from the from the funding perspective. However, as I said, if you want to get the most out of these programs, you really have to do this alignment with the things that you really want to do. So your your products, or the services, you provide the new product areas that you would like to open, and so on. I think that's how you can get maximum benefit from from this program.

Pascal Huijbers  
Okay, if you look at our audience, a lot of the audience is working in it or in technology, and they're often in a technology leadership role. What would you say to them in their daily job? How can they pick up on what's going on from the ages You

John Soldatos  
they have a very good opportunity, especially if, you know they get they, if they enter these arise on Europe applications and they are able to attract funding they have some very good opportunity to complement the existing research and innovation activities with EU funding so they can get a significant boost in your existing research and innovation strategies. Of course, they can have also the opportunity to kick off new lines of development, maybe new new product or new business cases inside the company and use a new instrument to finance them. However, because there are always people that would argue not okay, the program might not be compatible. Hundred percent to date operations. And this is pretty understandable for example, as I said before innovation cycles might may be faster internally in a company, I think what is important is to create first a strategy. So you align yourself researcher in innovation in Davis with the EU funding and you you use it in the most appropriate way knowing you know, the limitations, the opportunities, but also the limitations. Now for smaller companies, I think they can get even more benefit, in my opinion, because we should grant funding is an opportunity to to grow the business to support their products to support the the research to roll out innovative development without rounding up on data quality. I mean, we just we know, he's always you know, I should dig when we, when companies talk and negotiate with venture capitals or other type of private investors. So this is a very good funding opportunity. And because of course, it's competitive, it's quite difficult to to become an among the top proposals. But if you if you if you manage to get there you have a great opportunity to secure funding for your activities without granting ATP on your on your product business. Oh, you know, I would say that, for small and medium enterprises, the opportunities are even, you know, greater and even more promising the rmds of large enterprises and of course, you For universities, maybe universities are more into these they know the vision a vital source of funding for them and actually how many European universities and research centers support PhDs. research programs, internal development, the development of the labs until one.

Pascal Huijbers  
Okay, john, thank you very much for your answers so far. And that brings me to my last question for today in this podcast, can you share your own fuel and what will happen with the horizon projects the coming months?

John Soldatos  
I think that we are going to see a major impact of COVID-19 on the horizon, Europe program and centrally a major impact on how the topics will will shape of course, as I said, because some budgetary discussions are are pending and wish have now moved up the top level. I think there might be some influence on the on the final budget. Of course, it remains to be seen I hope this is this is a this impact would be on the positive side of the for the program run around and I get excited because in the last few weeks we understand that research is the basic weapon we have to advance and to solve big problems, big crises like the COVID-19 healthcare crisis.

Pascal Huijbers  
Thank you very much for this conversation. John. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

John Soldatos  
I would like to thank you very much, Pascal for for the opportunity and for for the good question.